Before we get started, we are
required to inform all attendees that the session is being recorded.
Microphones and webcams have been disabled for all participants
to protect your personally identifiable information.
All communication for today's session will be via the chat box.
With that, I will turn it over to Jan Kucklick to get us started.
Good morning.
Good afternoon, everyone, and thanks for joining us.
My name is Jan Kucklick, I'm with NOAA's Office for Coastal Management.
My pronouns are she her.
And we'd like to welcome you today to the fourth webinar
in a series of webinars that we have designed
for applicants that have been invited back to submit a full proposal
for the Coastal Resilience Regional Challenge.
If you missed our prior webinars, just a reminder that we do have
those recordings on the website, so we encourage you to take a look at those.
So the purpose of today's webinar
is to explore our meaningful community engagement, specifically
with a focus on engaging tribal and indigenous communities.
For those of you that remember, we did a prior community engagement
webinar a few weeks ago, and that was just a more general, broad webinar.
This one is specifically focused on the tribal and indigenous communities.
So why are we providing these webinars to you around meaningful engagement?
Well, as you all know, meaningful engagement
is integral to two of the four priorities
for the challenge equity at enduring capacity.
And it's also part of three of the evaluation criteria.
So the information presented here isn’t specific to the competition,
but certainly will be very helpful when you're considering
this element in your proposals.
As we have done in our prior webinars.
We're going to be holding all your questions until the end.
However, I do encourage you that as questions
occur to you to please put them in the chat
and then we'll get to the questions during our Q&A period.
So continue to add those to those.
The questions we really ask that you, you ask questions that are focused on
today's webinar specifically and directed to our speakers.
If you have questions just in general about the competition,
then we encourage you to use the ResilienceChallenge@NOAA.gov
email address to get those questions in.
So today we're really fortunate to have with us three gifted practitioners
in this space of meaningful engagement with tribes
and indigenous communities, specifically native Hawaiians.
And we
really encourage you to take advantage of this opportunity with this,
with our time, with them to ask
deep, thoughtful, meaningful questions.
And just a reminder, when we do record these webinars, we do not record
your names.
So your questions will be anonymous on the recording.
So with that, I'm going to actually turn it over to our first speaker,
Bill Thomas.
Bill is the senior advisor for Islands, Indigenous
and International Issues with NOAA's Office for Coastal Management.
So back to you, Bill.
a key member of our team that's going to be maybe in the background, but
is not really in the background of what we do, and that's Aranzazu Lascurain.
You know, I've had the honor of working
for several years and she's our Southeast and Caribbean regional lead.
And while she'll be in the role as a moderator monitoring questions
and prodding us, if we forget something important,
she is a real key member of our indigenous and tribal team,
and she works tirelessly to help inform, guide and assist.
You know, those whom we as public servants
serve as well as keep our team on track.
So mahalo, Aranzazu, for everything that you do.
You know, we
all bring our worldviews to the things that we do.
And native Hawaiian biologist background working with NOAA for,
I think 35 years now,
you know, I have my worldview on how things work.
And I've worked with tribes and
people from across the Pacific as well as native Alaskans.
So this is just my view of the way things work.
So hopefully I can gain something from it.
But knowing the community in which you have or building a relationship with and
not just the people, but the relatives of the place,
those other than human relatives often referred to as ecosystem services,
but also the custom ceremonies, protocol and language
are among the key things that help us to understand people
in place of our work, as well as remind us of the major question
that,
you know, sort of frames all of the work that we do
and something that you might not think of, but this is it
from the indigenous perspective especially, is who and what
are the beneficiaries of our collaborative work.
So in this slide, you got ten words
and you know the accompanying pictures and it just said a lot about
who we are as Hawaiians and why we are the way we are.
But this is just one example of the importance of understanding
the deeper meanings of words, proverbs and the languages of places.
Now I Ka Wā Mua I Ka Wā Ma Hope, on the left.
You know, the literal meaning of I Ka Wā Mua means
the time in front, I Ka Wā Ma Hope means the time of Beck.
But the real, the deeper meaning of the words is
one stands firmly in the present with one's back to the future
and one's eyes fixed on the past, seeking
historical answers for present day dilemmas from our kupuna, our
ancestors, our elders,
and then the taro, the kalo on the right.
Legend passed down through generation tell us the kalo
the taro’s progenitor, the first Hawaiian, his name was
Hāloa, which I’ll refer to later
the kalos that our people from the earliest times to the present
grew it prolific in all the lands, the Aina, of all of our islands.
Now Aina means that which feeds us, but the literal translation is
we eat the land,
we consume the taro.
We do that we're consuming not just nutrients, the land, the water.
It gives the color its life.
And to reflect this, we have a phrase ...
ke Aloha ʻĀina.
So all of these things are tied together.
To understand a deeper meaning of this phrase means
we have an inseparable bond with our land, our home.
So wherever we go, the land, the water that fed and quench us are always with us.
They never leave us.
We are the land, we keep the water.
We are the land, and of the water.
So it's always a part of us wherever we go.
Now kalo, taro and Hāloa, that I mentioned earlier,
the first progenitor are important words that serve as the base
for the words that you may be familiar with,
but not necessarily understand the deeper meanings of them.
So ha, H-A from Hāloa
means the breath of life and ohana
comes from the oha, which is the quorum
or the parent base of the tower from which the sprouts grow.
And it's whose budding plants grow like a family
that grows from its parental base.
But Ha is also part of aloha.
All of these mean facing, and facing forward but also facing the future.
So what comes next?
Aloha. What comes next? The breath of life.
So when we exchange the Ha in aloha,
we're acknowledging that we share the most fundamental part of life.
And that's a breath that allows us to breathe.
Breath, after breath, after breath.
And that sort of gives you a hint of why our lands and waters
and everyone, everything encompassed within them are so important.
They're all our relatives and we have responsibility to all of them.
And all of the wisdom and knowledge passed down to us by generations of kupuna.
We honor that.
So pretty sure some of you hopefully have learned a little bit
about the relationships of some words like Aloha and Aina
that you may have been familiar with before, but not necessarily
understanding the fuller, deeper meanings and why they're so important.
Understanding why we are who we are and have such a strong, inseparable
relationship with our place.
And this is typical across the Pacific
and not just Hawaiians,
but also with other tribes and indigenous communities.
Now, knowingly, some of the fundamental, deeper
meanings of the words of place understanding and implementing
and sometimes modifying the lessons from our ancestors.
That's I think
it's vital, that it's important, that leads to developing relationships
that we're developing with the people and the places through our work.
Yeah,
and it makes for better science and more lasting success.
We understand that.
Now, one lesson for this part is
be open to learning, understanding new things that might be counter
to what you've learned, but nonetheless important to your community.
Collaborations.
Have someone from the place of you that understand or seek deeper
meanings to understand the community that you're sharing some time with
and make sure the community's actually part of the entire project.
From design to implementation.
Next slide, please, Jan.
So many of you have probably seen the first part of this.
Relationships move at the speed of trust
in their articles, in books on topics.
Steven Covey refers to trust, speed and cost in terms of relationships,
customers, business partners, corporations, and personal relationship.
And the
Reverend Jennifer Bailey, who's an ordained minister
and a public theologian and national leader in the multi-faith
movement for social Justice, eloquently captures the essence of the interplay
between trust relationships and the pace of social change.
In a quote from one of her speeches that are so memorable and to this day,
that relationships move
at speed of trust, but social change moves at the speed of relationships.
So this quote beautifully illustrates the critical role that trust plays in
building and nurturing relationships,
trust being the foundation upon which relationships are built.
And it takes consistency and authenticity and no set limit on time,
no set limit on time to develop just as relationships
grow nd deepen the peace of trust, organizational and social change
also hinges on the strength and depth of relationships.
Because remember in math, you know that,
you know, distance in time determines speed.
All of these can be measured and quantified and easily determined.
But in terms of relationships, speed is not the issue.
It's sort of irrelevant to a certain extent.
The time it takes to develop in a relationship is usually viewed
retrospectively when reflecting how long one
has been working with or working on or in a relationship.
So relationships built in
trust are less about speed and more about what one gives of themselves
in building sustainable relationships and less about, excuse me.
And, you know, how long will you be contributing to
and working side by side with the community you've engaged with,
you know, through your long tenure or newly developed relationships?
It's always a question that is there when you begin
a relationship and while you're working a relationship.
Okay. Next slide, please.
sorry.
So before we go back to that slide, I'm sorry.
These are examples of all the people you've worked with.
The top is, you know, Alaska, the Pacific
and the White House and the bottom.
That is across the Pacific, but includes tribes.
And so the right is tribal engagement.
This is over the course of 21 years.
And it's not just because of funding, but it's
because of the relations that we've built, invest in relationship building
that doesn't require money, but it requires ourselves get to that.
You know, So that's been a continual strength.
Is this important piece of relationships.
Next slide, please.
So to leave you with what's next,
what's going to happen
after in two or three, four or five years when the project is ending,
when the project's planning comes to an end?
As Jan mentioned, the notes, the federal funding opportunities mentioned
enduring capacity.
Sustaining that level of community readiness that promotes continuous
adaptation, developing and maintaining workforce capabilities.
You know, what's going to be the lasting impacts of the project to this end?
In all of the capacity sharing and use that capacity sharing that capacity
building, because we learned a lot from those that we work with.
But how will the capacity of the project enable communities
and you and your organization to better adapt to future climate changes?
And what will the stories be told by those other generations?
What memories of your project?
And you know, I'll leave you with that
and we'll go through the questions and any questions you may have later.
But I'd like to take the opportunity to introduce Dr.
Diamond Tachera our next speaker.
Diamond is a kānaka ʻōiwi, native Hawaiian born and raised on Oahu and
the Ōlelo Noeau, the native Hawaiian proverb
that sort of guides her in her research.
Ola i ka wai a ka ‘ōpua, there's life in the water from the clouds
shows the knowledge of our kupuna who understood
that rain gives life, ke wai ola, water is life.
And it's with these proverbs that Diamond focus.
It's a research to investigate
the rain waters that were observed and understood by kupuna
such that we can best prepare for the impacts of climate change.
Now Diamond is doing a lot of things.
She's a project scientist at the National Center for Atmospheric Research
in the Microscope Meteorology lab.
She's a co-director of Rising Voices Center for Indigenous and Earth Science.
She's a part of NSF funded Rising Voices, Changing Coasts
Hub Project hosted by Haskell Indian Nations University.
A mentor for many students through the mighty mentoring program,
the University of Hawaii, that actually
inspires individuals of native Hawaiians
and other underrepresented ethnicities
to become the next generation of Earth scientists.
And, you know,
I met Diamond in several years going at an AGU meeting as undergraduates.
And here we are several years later.
She's now the, she got her PhD, she's the co-director of Rising Voices Center.
She's part of the NSF Grant.
But the thing that connected us is not just with her research,
but we ended up knowing people in common, which included my son.
So it's an honor for me to introduce Diamond, who,
you know, inspires
those of us who have preceded her not just generations to come, but
who preceded by generation of being the kind of human
that she is Diamond, It's all yours.
Oh geez, I'm teary eyed now, Uncle Bill.
Well, thank you for that very kind introduction.
I don't want to take
too much time in this part.
I really would rather engage with all of you
through questions and answers later.
But one thing that I think I wanted to build upon,
what Uncle Bill is sharing, I have to call Uncle Bill.
Uncle Bill because I know his son.
So in my head he's my uncle.
But anyway, I you know, as
I was coming up through college and grad school,
I think the biggest thing that
shocked me
was the way that we silo ourselves right.
Even within the University of Hawaii at Manoa,
where I went to school, you know, the Earth Sciences program
is very much separated from the oceanography program.
And as an indigenous scientist, all of those pieces are connected.
And so I think I think as you're thinking about
writing proposals
and engaging with Indigenous communities, just understanding that
what you may be doing
for your work as a scientist
is very much someone else's life right?
Something that they depend on for water,
for food, for clean air.
Right. Like there's so many
people right now in Lahaina, on Maui,
who don't have access to most of those things.
And for a lot of us as scientists, we see the Lahaina
Fire as a very interesting opportunity to do research.
Right?
We want to go in and we want to help and we want to help build a better Lahaina.
But also as we write proposals
to do that kind of work and research, keep in mind
that so many of these people lost everything that they
owned.
They lost maybe family members.
They might lose access to their ancestral lands.
There's so much of
humanity that gets lost in the sciences.
And I think that's why we talk so much about relationships,
especially when we talk about working with indigenous communities.
We really separate out
emotion and feelings and all that, like the feelings stuff.
We take it out, we take it out of the science
so that we can just focus on the data and the numbers.
But in reality, when we look at data and numbers, we're looking
at someone else's life.
So I think I just wanted to add
in that piece that, you know, for me
growing up now as a scientist,
growing up as an adult, as an indigenous scientist,
it's been a really weird experience to be trained
to look at datasets and to
think like a climate researcher, but then to also live and breathe
all of the experiences that Uncle Bill talks about,
you know, and putting myself in my kupuna or my ancestors shoes when
I go out and do fieldwork and try to imagine
what my ancestors saw and felt and experienced
as they stood in different places in different parts of the
islands and, you know, from mountain to sea
how they experience their environment.
And so, you know, for a lot of us who
were born and raised here in Hawaii, we may not necessarily
have been trained in the same way that our ancestors were.
But I think deep down inside,
at least for me, that I didn't even realize that
that's what I was doing half the time when I would go to the beach with my friends
or when I would go into the mountains, you know, driving my forerunner like I'd
I don't even realize sometimes that that's what I'm thinking of
until I get to that point on the mountain.
And I'm like, I take a deep breath and I look at the clouds
and just like Uncle Bill said, Ola i ka wai a ka ‘ōpua, I look at the clouds
and I think, Wow, my ancestors probably stood here looking at these
very same types of clouds, understanding the water cycle and how this is the water
that feeds the groundwater that we eventually drink at the coastline.
And so, you know, there's so much of that
generational knowledge
that gets passed down
that I think we really need to honor and respect and
share with the rest of the world when
folks are ready to share that with us.
So, yeah, I hate talking about myself.
So I want to introduce my really,
really good friend, big sister,
just all around awesome human being.
Julie Maldonado, Dr.
Julie Maldonado.
She's the co-founder of the Livelihoods Knowledge Exchange Network.
And she and I, along with one other
friend, Katie Jones, co-directors of the NSF and CAR
Rising Voices Center for Indigenous and Earth Sciences Program.
Julie has been a really incredible role model for me personally.
You know, I've done all of my work here in Hawaii
and I've never really expanded further into other indigenous communities around
the continental United States,
and it's been really awesome to watch her work and meet the Ohana,
the families from Louisiana that she's worked with towards a
justice driven disaster
recovery and response network.
So yeah, I'm done talking about myself.
Take it away, Julie.
I’d way rather listen to that and I think everyone else would too. So
I didn't know what to say when I was told the order of speakers and I was like,
no, I want to go before them because I can't follow that.
So just huge Thanks to Bill
and Diamond and Aranzazu and Jan and everyone here.
And yeah, I think I'll just take a few minutes to share.
I think I was
invited on here kind of, you know, I'm coming from a little different
perspective and very much,
Western trained social scientist.
I'm a forever recovering anthropologist, I guess I would say
disaster researcher.
And so you know, coming into this space is I'm guessing,
maybe several of you are here and kind of,
what are some of the lessons
and kind of gut checks, I've learned along the way.
And so
when we're talking about this session, it was just kind of brainstorming a bit
as to, you know, what kind of some of the, you know, lessons
I've learned, some of them harder, always with a lot of apologies
tied to them, just thought would maybe be helpful.
And as you all are thinking about moving forward with your work
and the proposals you're working on with your teams.
And so, you know, as
we think about kind of this
existential threat, right, of the climate crisis that,
you know, this
like many other crises we're facing environmentally, economically
and so forth, that, you know, it really calls for
a diversity of knowledge systems and ways of knowing and understanding
to really address the crises
in a new way and meet the moment that,
that has in some ways,
transpired in the past but is taking new forms in front of us.
And so in thinking about, you know, what are really the risks and realities
and challenges to consider, you know, in this context of what
often gets labeled as co-production of knowledge and research
and what are the possibilities really for a transformative change in this space.
And so I'm posing here kind of more questions than answers,
but basically, you know, kind of collectively consider
together, you know, in the projects are being put forward,
if labeled say, as this
process of co-production that it's important really to consider
you know is this co-production name only that can run the risk of being,
you know, another extractive and transactional enterprise.
You know within the colonial driven framework
or how the
collaborative partnership process happens and unfolds.
And if it's actually co-designed and co-created.
And so, you know, some question this raises is really
who is driving the project question, right, Who does the project serve?
And for what purpose?
Who's determining the indicators to be used
and the data to be collected and holding the data for that matter,
you know, who's considered an expert and given voice
who are not just the stakeholders but the rights holders and understanding
the difference in that,
you know, how can the dominating,
you know, at times extractive and even violent,
project approach really be flipped to consider who and where
holds the expertise, the knowledge
and the wisdom needed in this space.
And so especially you know in considering communities really have been forced on
you know to the frontlines and of the climate crisis
and you know looking now at really you know, the billions of dollars
that are being poured into climate adaptation resilience projects, you know,
what are people actually experiencing in terms of benefits.
And so we think about these tensions and challenges and power dynamics
and existing injustices and inequities and really histories
that are brought into the collaboration, how can we be honest about them?
How can we have honest, genuine conversations together with our partners?
And so
recognizing in our co-created processes are not linear,
they're ongoing and iterative and messy,
and it's not meant to be comfortable always.
Right? And that's okay.
You know, it's important to acknowledge that and that kind of not,
you know, sweep it under the rug, if you will.
And so how can we really hold space and understand
the process is going to be different every context, right?
That that there's no one size fits all approach.
So the question is then, how can we move from
a transactional framework to one that is relational and relationship based?
It's grounded in mutual trust and respect and commitment, and
accountability.
And so when we're thinking about kind of these
different approaches, you know, it's
different to what.
Right, Like whose and what perspectives are being centered
in that project process.
And so, you know, what is our framing so that
we may not be creating, quote, solutions
with the same foundation that caused the problem in the first place.
Right? That's often the definition of crazy.
And so how do we develop these
co-created actions, maybe more so than kind of, quote, solutions?
So one of the most important elements
that we think about, you know, in this in the partnership process is the start.
And recognizing the start doesn't mean just a moment to start
can often be ongoing for quite some time,
but often this is the process that's skipped over or rushed
based on, you know, timelines established by agencies and funding mechanisms
and external forces which emphasize often the quantitative outcomes.
Right.
And products over kind of the process.
go to the next slide, please.
And, you know, so in this context is,
you know, Diamond shared that we serve as co-directors
for the Rising Voices Center for Indigenous Earth Sciences,
hosted by NSF, the National Center for Atmospheric Research.
And at the core of this work,
it's really continued to be about building relationships
and is the foundation really for bringing a diversity
of knowledges and wisdom and science and partnerships together.
So this is, you know, it's always a work in progress, always
shifting and changing, evolving and, you know, renegotiating
and that continuous building of relationships and mutual trust.
So recognizing that, you know, bringing a diversity of peoples and cultures and
knowledge systems together.
Right?
We're often we're starting from a trust deficit in a lot of ways.
So it's not that you work on building relationships and that's that
it's done that were always being built right continuously.
And that means work and time and commitment to this.
We can go to the next slide.
And so the starting point in this work together is really thinking
about shared values and agreements and just sharing here
some of the ones that we focus on theorizing voices.
This obviously going to look really different in different contexts.
It requires that ongoing dialogue together really, and the importance
of acknowledging when mistakes are made and learning from them
of how to consider a greater value and respect
given to the time and space that's required to build those relationships
and an approach partnerships in a culturally appropriate way.
Right.
And so, you know, the work isn't easy,
but it in
these very spaces, you know, and sacred places
where people are taking profound actions that can really provide
a kind of a compass for a justice
forward, more climate resilient future.
Next slide.
Just a couple of more slides to share with you all.
So this is from
a collaborative piece with several folks
from the Rising Voices Ohana
I just wanted to share here in ways that we thought about
intercultural collaborations for a more just
equitable and sustainable responses to our climate crisis.
And so, you know, in thinking about this work,
there are some considerations, you know, that we shared their experiences
to address in meaningful engagements.
And so some of the questions we started from are
where is the locus of power in the collaboration?
What's the purpose of the collaboration and who does the collaboration serve?
What are the responsibilities in intercultural collaborations
and how are relationships developed for these collaborations?
Next slide, please.
And then finally, you know, just some additional kind of
considerations to add on here, you know, is really thinking about
how we can work to ensure community
leadership of the project is guiding the decision making.
And it's not just getting, you know, community buy-in to it
of again understand that difference between stakeholders right holders
and those, you know, who really hold inherent
rights and responsibilities.
You know, how does a project directly benefit the community?
Does it uphold their self-determination and sovereignty?
Is it designed to share capacity
focused on doing with right and in support of instead of just for,
you know, what are the budget considerations?
Maybe a little less sexy thing to talk about, but so important
and that, you know, does the budget
provide equitable support for so much of the invisible work
that goes on by community leaders and those in the community be engaged with?
For example, if there's a project site visit that takes tremendous
coordination, logistics management,
where folks are often wearing 10,000 different hats,
especially if they're coming from smaller communities.
So recognizing the work that that takes
and that it requires.
And so thinking about, you know, how is technical assistance provided,
especially in the context of these projects are thinking about,
if it's awards or some awards,
how are those administrative over burdens reduced?
Simply receiving financial compensation itself can come with high costs
and overwhelm already overwhelmed systems, thinking about varying
reporting requirements and demands that are required,
you know, thinking about what are the opportunities for redress
and conflict resolution for if and when issues arise,
thinking about mid project evaluations, opportunities to reflect and shift course.
How is flexibility built in to consider in times of crisis such as a disaster?
How our indigenous knowledge is being protected.
Considerations around data sovereignty and indigenous data sovereignty
of making sure that we're doing our homework right,
that the onus isn't always put on the community to explain,
but that we're understanding the history and the background of place and people
that were following the appropriate protocols for engagement.
Who needs to be communicated with?
What's the pathway for permission to be taken?
And recognizing that can take some time.
Knowing who lives in the place, right?
Sometimes there can be a diversity of communities represented, sometimes
not right, but knowing who actually lives there is a critical piece.
A starting point can be negotiating together,
kind of a memorandum of understanding or declaration of principles.
And so, so much of this
is coming
in with how do we actively, truly listen.
Right.
And flip the script on office, who's considered an expert
and whose voice counts.
And so to remembering on day
one of the project, there is not when data collection starts
that the relationship building the act of listening,
the learning and gaining mutual trust required time and commitment.
And that is in fact work, right?
So the work isn't just about where numbers are being crunched or,
you know, but it's starting from the beginning
when we're interacting together as human beings, building partnerships.
And, you know, it's not a process that can be rushed, but it does
require flexibility and commitment
and a focus on community timelines
and not necessarily the project constraints.
So I know that was kind of blitzkrieg
quick with a lot on the slides, but that has been
what's weighing on my mind since this topic came up.
So thank you for indulging me, with that
Thank you Julie, and thank you so much
Bill and Diamond, really appreciate your perspectives and
observations and
I'd love to, let's dig into a few questions.
I've got some of my own and I encourage everyone to
please put your questions in the chat and we'll get to those as well.
We do have the time. I appreciate that.
So I'm going to start actually, my first question is going to be for Diamond
and I know that you were involved
and continue to be very involved with the Maui fires.
And so knowing about the very painful loss of like homes
and historical structures on Maui this past August,
are there any principles of engagement that have been put forth
from the community that you can share with this group?
I would say that
for the Lahaina community there, if you're familiar with
how the community organizations have started to pop up
there, there, I don't want to say isolated,
but they're also they're very, they do their own thing.
So in terms of engaging
with these folks, just like Julie and Uncle Bill mentioned,
you know, the way we engage with people is going to look different.
There isn't really like a checklist or a protocol that we can really follow
other than, you know, like respecting people's
time and space and just
having
respect for what they're going through and what they're
having to manage on their own. Right.
So a lot of what's going on right now for these community
organizations is not just,
you know, feeding people in their community.
It's also fighting for
better housing. Right.
A lot of these families have been living in hotels and slowly
are getting kicked out of hotels in order to make room for tourism.
And not being able to afford to even stay on Maui.
Some of them have had to come
to a separate island to find affordable housing or have moved away.
I have some friends whose family moved to Vegas
to live with family because they couldn't
afford they couldn't find
rentals that they could afford on Maui.
After the fire.
And then just dealing with like,
how do I recover everything I lost.
Right.
One analogy I like to share
just from a local person's
perspective is like when the fire happened, President Biden
gave like $700 per household
and right as like here, this should help.
An iPhone is more than $700.
Right.
And if you ran out of a burning building
and maybe didn't think to even grab your phone,
that's not even going to help cover the cost of something
that helps you call your family to tell you that you're still alive,
let alone check emails or
whatever else you have to do to sustain your your income.
Right? So
there's a lot of struggle here when working with Lahaina communities.
And I think just
having patience with yourself to know that,
like I know there's an urgency in funding, right?
Like for us, there's always, if we do rapid, we have to do this rapidly.
Well, we can also just like see,
you know, see how the relationship building goes with the community
because there's
a lot emotionally going on.
And the Lahaina Fire is a very
strong example of emotional capacity.
Right.
But like, even if we're talking about approaching a taro farmer,
who you might want to work with because they're located in a very
interesting spot for hydrological studies, like even for them.
Right.
It's there's a lot going on because it takes a lot of work
to be a farmer and you don't get a lot of it's not a high paying job, right?
So there's a lot there's a lot going on for these people.
Thanks for sharing
all that and definitely hearing the idea of patience.
The idea of listening. Right.
So, so key.
Bill, we've got a question from the chat that I'm wondering
If maybe you can speak to.
So the question is, does
NOAA have any best practices or protocols
on indigenous data, data sovereignty
that you would recommend?
Excuse me.
There's two things with that.
One is
I always have an issue with the term best practices because there are only be one,
but there's certainly good practices
and evolving practices that are becoming to be.
Now indigenous data sovereignty is a big issue.
It's something that's growing across the U.S.
And I can say that with NOAA
is that we have many partners that are doing this and we have
policies for
working with indigenous communities
that includes some of the Indigenous data sovereignty.
But as far as a
policy on
data sovereignty
as a standalone
that's still developing, we wouldn’t have one, as far as I know.
But there are others that, like I said, that we're working with
that actually has
it's one of the things that's actually not just a discussion point in Rising
Voices, the Rising Voices Center, but it's actually guides us.
And it's a good question because data
and who owns the data and who is in charge of it,
who has the authorities on it is one of the most important things.
And initially that entry point in developing that relationship,
because those are going to be the things
that are going to come up in these communities.
I'll give you one example from Hawaii, and it's years ago.
There's a guy who's an author who goes across the Pacific
and he gets to these communities and he writes books and he sells them all.
And he's fairly famous, but he wrote
a letter to the editor of the Smithsonian magazine
and complained about how the people in Hawaii are so uncooperative with them,
not giving him the information that he wants
on some of the practices, but also some of the indigenous anthologies
that we have.
And when I read that, I got a little annoyed.
So I wrote back and tried to explain that there are things that we can share.
We do that, but the things we cannot
because that's something that is passed down from our kupuna.
They had those responsibilities and passed the responsibility to you
to use that information for the betterment of the whole community.
But you are the one that's in charge,
so you can't give that information just to anybody,
you know, and there this benefiting, that the author had of making
a lot of money off of this, but not giving back to the communities.
So if you give it back and take the time to actually have a relationship with them,
it may have information broadly and get that understanding that.
I can tell you this, but it can't do that.
And that's in data and digital data sovereignty is that there's
actually authority because free, prior and informed consent comes with that too.
Right?
And under free, prior and informed consent
have the authority and responsibility in many cases to say no.
And we have to accept that.
So and that runs counter to open data in the government.
So coming to terms with everything that we get, it's supposed to be public.
There's certain extent
that runs counter to our discussions on digital data sovereignty.
So coming to a place where we can agree
on what that means, not only in terms of the Indigenous communities,
but to the government and what are the policies, the rules
and the statutes that may need to be changed to ensure that
data sovereignty is something that is not just on a piece of paper,
but it's actually implemented by the government.
So it's a long answer too.
We don't really have anything specific
that we're working as partners to figure out the best ways forward.
Thank you, Bill.
So another question in the in the chat
and maybe, Julie, you can take this one.
What is your guidance regarding engagement directly
with Tribal Council governments versus with staff that work
for tribal government?
I think that’s, yeah it's a great question.
It's not going to look the same.
I mean, it's going to depend on the project
and who's leading it like is there already, say, for example, a resolution
to be doing this
and then like you're coming in at the point
and you're working with the tribal staff or like, are you the one approaching them
right for the project?
Which means it might start maybe engaging
with someone who's staff, but recognizing,
you know, that they're not necessarily the decision makers
and then
understanding what is the appropriate protocol to follow.
So is it, you know,
is it you going to meet with the council and getting on the agenda?
Is that is it the staff doing that?
I mean, if there's someone you know, you know, on staff, it's
good to start with them.
But knowing that's not where it's going to end.
I mean, I think the biggest thing in this is recognizing time,
especially, you know, if it's say,
looking to do a tribal resolution that the iteration that's going to be
needed on that, you know, even getting on agendas can take some time right.
Folks are dealing with million thousand other things.
And then as part of this, too, you
know, is also which is a little different from your question, but tied to it is,
does the tribe have, for example, their own
institutional review board process or if they don't have an official one,
do they have something akin that you would need to work through?
So that's, you know, and that might be through the tribal council
sometimes, you know, depending on the nature of the work
it's engaging, for example, with natural resources department.
So but I think the most important thing is
if you've done it in one way, in one,
maybe one tribe or community, like not assuming or
that's how it's going to work now like that, no you're starting
maybe you've learned some things, but starting over from the beginning
and making sure you have the time to actually work through those channels
because recognizing they have a lot going on too.
So even getting on their agenda can take quite a while.
Thank you.
That was a really good perspective. Thanks.
We do have a follow up question.
Around the data sovereignty.
And I'm just going to note that that that's something that
that we can address through our frequently asked questions.
I think that might be beyond our group
here to address that one specifically just want you to know that.
But we do have another question and maybe Diamond,
you might have some thoughts on this one.
Do You have thoughts on working with researchers
who just want to publish papers, but working with them
does have an opportunity to help reduce a specific risk in the community.
It's a loaded question.
I think I would
pose a question
to a scientist whose main goal is to publish papers
and ask them, What do you think
the community gets out of it, right? Like
a climate model.
Maybe we can help reduce this specific risk
for a community, but that doesn't really address
how the community
has to build a wall or relocate inland or
there's a lot in
reciprocity, right?
When we do this work.
And, you know,
one of the friends that we work with for Uncle Bill, Julie around is you and I,
you know, our friend Cory, who's from Alaska.
He made a very great point in one of our last meetings that,
you know, when it comes to this kind of research,
scientists need the community more than the community need.
The scientists.
Community are already doing the work.
Community already are experiencing climate
that they're already having to adapt to.
A lot of people like for us in Hawaii,
we're using our ancestral knowledge of
past experiences
with sea level rise, tsunamis and all that kind of stuff.
To understand how these future projections will impact our communities.
Right?
So we already have people who are doing work
to adapt to climate change that scientists are wanting to study
and prove through a climate model or some other way.
So I guess, yeah, my point is that
for a lot of these conversations,
I think for us as scientists, we think that we're doing
community members a favor by
doing this work with their community.
And I would suggest maybe
a better approach to
this thought process of publishing papers would be
how could you write a proposal after having built a relationship with
the community for X number of years, days, whatever,
whatever your given period of time is right to build a strong relationship
with the community where you've built a trust
standing with them.
How could you write a proposal that will then get
you papers that truly addresses
their needs and you co-develop these research questions with them?
How could that be a model that we use
to also achieve these metrics that we need to achieve
as scientists, right, Like publications, presentations, having students, whatever
X number of dollars funded, how could we how could we
achieve those metrics for ourselves while also doing it in a very respectful
and reciprocal way with Indigenous communities?
Thanks, Diamond. I appreciate that.
All right. We've got time for one more question.
And so I think I'm going to throw this one to you, Julian, is a question,
another question I have is could you share any ideas or strategies
about keeping those relationships going after the life of a funded project?
Yeah, that's a great question.
And I think it goes back to,
you know, what is
something that Diamond just touched on too with the publishing papers.
Right. Of even the project being proposed.
You know, what is actually showing up for the community.
Right.
So there's work maybe being done within project boundaries and maybe even
that's been proposed by the community, you know, and there's direct benefit.
But often, I mean, when your relationship,
it's about everything else.
And so maybe, yeah, there's some obscure
benefit of putting a paper out there,
but what are the other ways that you're showing up outside
of that project which connects to then what is that ongoing relationship?
Because often it's,
you know, as you're cooking a meal together
or as you're doing, you know, some other complete other thing,
that that's what emerges as what's really needed
and what they really want to do and how they want to do it.
And so understanding how you could be in best service
to support what they're looking to do and that takes time.
Those conversations happen organically.
They emerge over time.
And so and that's why I say that was that commitment look like
it's not just showing up, you know, because there's a project meeting,
but how are you showing up just as yourself
take off whatever hat you're
wearing from your institution or just show up as you
and I think you'll find you
can actually connect pretty well together most often, right?
And that's how you develop
what goes on over time.
And also recognizing
it doesn't mean you go project, project, project, project, project, right?
It's what you're doing together in between
really defines the ongoing nature of your collaboration.
Thanks.
I love that show up with you.
I just wrote that down.
I think that's a great way of capturing the essence of what you just shared.
So I appreciate that a lot.
Well, I want to we are almost out of time
and I have one question for the participants.
We do like to have a quick survey.
So we have a poll we just launched.
And if you would go to the Triangle Circle Square, the bottom right hand corner,
and just answer that quick question about how this webinar
was a good use of your time.
It's really helpful feedback for us as we plan future webinars.
And speaking of future webinars,
we are going to we do have a few more scheduled,
so we have
got one coming up in January.
On January 10th at 4:00.
Around.
A fellowship program that we are creating for the CRC Collaborative
and we want to share more about that
and what that means and how that can help awarded recipients.
And so that's on January ten.
And then in addition, we have two diving into
Digital Coast trainings that we have scheduled
and we're offering it twice, it’s the same training, two different days
and times to help accommodate different folks schedule and time zones.
And so one is December 5th at 2:00 Eastern,
and the second one is December 13th at 5:00 Eastern.
So I definitely want to make you all aware of that
and then we'll be putting in the chat in just a second.
Important links.
Thank you, Shannon, for to remind you, don't forget,
we do have that one on one technical assistance
that's available to you and there is still time to sign up
and reserve a slot to get some one on one assistance on your proposal.
So take a look.
If you're interested in that, click that link and indicate an interest in that.
And then we do have our website as well as that meaningful engagement.
Quick reference, which we shared with you all at the last webinar.
And with that, I just really want to thank Bill
and Diamond and Julie for very briefly, I mean, I feel like this
time has just flown, sharing your, your insight and your perspectives
and some really, really important information about how to
engage tribal indigenous communities in a very real, meaningful way.
And as you said, it takes patience and listening and being yourself.
And so all good things to remember.
And if we didn't get to the questions, any questions in the chat,
we will be addressing those in our FAQs on the website.
So with that, thank you all so much.
And again, thank you to Diamond, Bill and Julie.